What are your favorite baseline synths?

topic posted Sat, February 9, 2008 - 2:50 PM by  adam
I have been loving Hydra and also Rob Papen's Albino. A little eq, maybe quadrafuzz and some tight sidechain compression from the low frequerncy percusives turns out a pretty slick low end. I often like to cut from 90 or so down, and boost a wide segment up to 500, ten I make a little cut arounf 200-300 to get rid of extra mud. It all depend on the original sound though.

What have you folks been using for your base and how do you like to treat it to get the sound you love?
Are there any plugs you folks love for treating your baselines?
posted by:
adam
New Jersey
  • Re: What are your favorite baseline synths?

    Sat, February 9, 2008 - 5:53 PM

    Adam,

    I use my DX7IIFD E! for a lot of basslines -- I just adore the way it sounds. Other times, I use the Novation VStation PowerCore DSP plugin.

    Regards,

    John

    Falling You - exploring the beauty of voice and sound
    www.fallingyou.com

    • Re: What are your favorite baseline synths?

      Sat, February 9, 2008 - 11:11 PM
      PSYN II ...pretty ripping!
      • Re: What are your favorite baseline synths?

        Sun, February 10, 2008 - 2:44 AM
        Ahhh cakewalks is still ripping it up, eh?

        I wish I could run sonar in osx. I would switch back in a heartbeat.
        No sonar is the only downside to life after PCs.
        • Re: What are your favorite baseline synths?

          Sun, February 10, 2008 - 5:27 AM
          save your pennies (or lots of dollars, actually), adam, and buy a new Intel Mac and you will have the best of both worlds by using boot camp and versions of Win XP and Mac OSX.

          I'm actually about to invest in a new Mac and , ironically, run most of my music apps on the PC side of the machine
          (and all my internet stuff on the Mac side so I don't have to worry about all the crappy security issues that accrue
          from Microsoft's pissing off most of the hacker world.

          I just adore Fruity Loops 7.0, Acid 7.0, Sound Forge 8.0, Tuareg 2, Granulab and several other proprietary stand alone
          sound design apps that only exist on the Windows side of the computer world so I will probably run Win XP on my
          new Intel Macbook.......................also, there are so many more free VST instruments, effects and standalone freeware apps that exist only on Windows......................still you can avail yourself of whatever rocks on the Mac side by booting into OSX whenever you want to.
          • Re: What are your favorite baseline synths?

            Sun, February 10, 2008 - 7:33 AM

            Rick,

            If you plan on running Windows on your new Intel Mac, a better choice might be to use a vitualization approach like Parallels or VMWare over Boot Camp, at least from a virus protection perspective. Just to be sure that people understand -- when you run Windows on your Intel Mac, it becomes as vulnerable as any normal Windows PC to viruses, malware, etc. There is nothing special about the Mac hardware -- it's that OSX is not nearly the target for virus writers as Windows is (and it's more difficult to make a harmful virus for OSX anyway, because the *nix security model has always been better than the Windows security model, though Vista has made some strides in this regard). Virtualization at least allows any viruses you get while running Windows to be contained within the Windows virtual machine that Parallels and VMWare create -- in other words, they'll affect the "virtual" Windows machine on your Intel Mac, without affecting OSX.

            I'm certainly not trying to dissuade anyone from running Windows on their new MacBook, only that, depending on what you need Windows for, a virtualization approach may make more sense (even with the tradeoffs it brings).

            Regards,

            John, OSX / *nix / Windows developer

            Falling You - exploring the beauty of voice and sound
            www.fallingyou.com

            • I have a pretty hooked up mac.

              Sun, February 10, 2008 - 1:51 PM
              I am running leopard on a brand new dual 2.6 macbook pro.

              I need some of my osx aps at the same time as cakewalk, so i would be forced to run the windows os as a virtual machine.
              I tried vmware and parallels for running sonar. Trying to run any hardcore ap through one of these softwares is a joke. It basically dicvides your system resources into two crappy computers, instead of one awesome.

              If you run vmwware or parallels, one cool feature is tht you can prohibit your windows virtual machine from network connection, leaving your nice mac safe. Too bad you can't actually ruin anyt serious audio software this way.

              So I have just been forced to adapt from sonar to cubase sx3. It really is not THAT different. I miss some cakewalk features, but there are some cool cubase features that sonar lacks. I guess it is a fair trade. But the dongle kind of sucks.


              Back to the subject of baseline vsts...

              Are there any plugs you folks like for the treatment of your baseline?
              What kinds of cuts and boosts do you make with your equalizer? Do you favor regular, sidechain, or multiband compression?
              • Re: I have a pretty hooked up mac.

                Sun, February 10, 2008 - 2:18 PM
                I often just use Ableton plugs like EQ and Compressor II but, often there are some instrument racks I'll use like the Vintage Channel Strip 1 thru 3. Also Camel Audio has a couple of free compressors like Camel Phat Free and Camel Crusher (this one I really like). Digital Fishphones has some nice plugs for tweaking signals as well. Reaktor has a couple of good compressors like Flatblaster I and II. Pluggo has a couple of oddball compressors but I tend to veer toward the audio mangling plugs that it offers. I know there are some people on this forum who don't like Reason but I have also had some pretty good results with Subtractor and the M-class compressor.....you have to play with it a little but, the results are worth it. I just say this because Reason Rewires into Cubase pretty easily, I understand. I thought that SX had some pretty decent plugs bundled with the software....have you played around much with those?
                • Re: I have a pretty hooked up mac.

                  Sun, February 10, 2008 - 5:19 PM
                  camel crusher is the "update" of camel phat free.

                  i'm kinda surprised no-one has mentioned any 303 emulators (i like the cm303 from computer music)--no acid tweakers in this tribe? i also like to use mr. ray (kinda like the "donationware" version of lounge lizard) for that "rhodes bass" and there's a minimoog emulator for free (minimogue) that i think is great.
              • Re: I have a pretty hooked up mac.

                Mon, February 11, 2008 - 2:08 AM
                Dear Adam,

                I don't have mine yet, but I've been doing a lot of research preparatory to buying a Macbook Pro
                and my good friend, Per Boysen, who writes professionally for Swedish gear magazines says that
                his Windows apps actually run a little more efficiently on a Macbook pro, that they do on a native
                Windows machine.

                Everyone I know who has run Windows on the new Intel Macs has given me the same feedback.

                Perhaps the trick is to run one's operating systems separately in Boot Camp, NOT Parallels (where, truly,
                the computer's resources will be split between the two operating systems.

                Just a thought but I am, by no means, an expert.

                yours thoughts?
                • Re: I have a pretty hooked up mac.

                  Mon, February 11, 2008 - 4:11 AM

                  Rick,

                  By all means, do what you need to in order to get the most use of the machine -- I was just trying to express that Macs running Windows are just as vulnerable to Windows viruses as a normal Windows machine is, so running Windows virtualized would offer greater protection from that threat (viruses can't modify your boot sector, for instance, because the hypervisor in Parallels or WMWare would intercept that). If a certain discipline is followed i.e. "never use Windows to get on the internet, i'll boot into OSX first", then Boot Camp is fine ...

                  Regards,

                  John, who likes his black MacBook quite a lot (and thankfully, doesn't need to run Windows on it)

                  Falling You - exploring the beauty of voice and sound
                  www.fallingyou.com

                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: I have a pretty hooked up mac.

                    Mon, February 11, 2008 - 5:39 AM
                    I do understand that already, John and that's been my entire reason for
                    getting an Intel Mac.

                    I intend to be completely disciplined about never using Windows connected to the internet
                    and always switching to OSX to do all of my correspondance, browsing and internet whilst on tour.

                    I don't have enough money or touring baggage space to take two computers with me so this seems
                    like the best of both worlds.

                    Also, regarding your sexy black MacBook: I want to do video production with this laptop as well as
                    project video that has realtime connection to my hardware based live looping equipment, so I've been strongly advised that
                    the Macbook is not sufficient with it's cheaper video card so I have to spring for the
                    extra $800 to get the MacBook Pro).

                    I'm leaving the inexpensive world of the PC to do this which bums me out a lot just due to lack of fundage in my life, but
                    I think it's the best option for the future from everything I"ve learned.

                    I think Macs are really elegant, but as I told my wife the other day, sometimes they have a sort of
                    "Plug and Pay" mentality about their hardware options.

                    It's a gripe that I'll probably use less and less
                    after I get one of these cool , sleek , powerful machines.
                    • Re: I have a pretty hooked up mac.

                      Mon, February 11, 2008 - 3:41 PM
                      I've been using albino some, but it definitely needs something to pump it up...

                      Massive is cool too, I like to bounce the same loop in massive out with different filter, compressor, and distortion settings and layer them...
                      fat clean pumping mono low low end, crunchy and thick midrange, and spread out highs makes a really fat bassline

                      I've also been digging on the free Alpha CM (in Computer Music), the ESP, ESM, and EXS24 (with no patch loaded, straight sine wave) in Logic, and really loving the Thor, Subtractor, and Malstrom in Reason.

                      Anyone know any tips for getting that thick "Claude vonStroke" tom-bass sound?
                      • Re: I have a pretty hooked up mac.

                        Tue, February 12, 2008 - 8:03 AM
                        TC Works, TC ness Compressor , with the juicy Soft Saturation is hands down my favorite plug-in for fattening up any bass. Thick ,rich and smooth.

                        Sometimes I like to Pitch transpose the bass line down an octave lower and blend it on a separate track for tons of sub push...
            • Re: What are your favorite baseline synths?

              Sun, February 10, 2008 - 2:33 PM
              I really am liking the Bass sounds that I get out of Massive by Native Instruments. If I understand it right, it's a 3 oscilator wavetable synth and it's got balls for a soft synth. I'm picky about bass sounds and never was really satisfied with the width that I could get out of bass sounds with the Reason and native Live features. It's meaty, but it's a CPU hog...appropriate name I suppose.
  • Re: What are your favorite baseline synths?

    Sun, February 10, 2008 - 3:40 PM
    I use a lot.
    The Zebra 2.x is my goto synth at the moment. So So amazing. controlled by AudioRealism Bass Line 2. The AAS Tassman, Ultra Analog, or operator can all put out kickass bass. I use the Loung lizzard Rhoads emulator for bass at times. Of coaurse when it comes to Multiband Distortion Ohmicide ti the king..
    • Re: What are your favorite baseline synths?

      Sun, February 10, 2008 - 4:17 PM
      Ohmicide is a killer that's for sure. I find it har to resist just smashing the signal into pure waveshaped splinters with that one though.
      I haven't messed much with massive, I have it though I must give it another shot sometime. Can for synch the oscilators, and force them to all start in phase on each note etc.? Is there a unison mode for thick baselines?

      The cubase bundled plugas are OK. I prefer ozone for treating the signal though. The cubase chanel eq is really weak in my opinion. Sx3 doesn't offer easy sidechaining, which is really important to me. So, as soon as the bugs are ironed out with cubase4 running on mac, I will make the switch.
      • Re: What are your favorite baseline synths?

        Sun, February 10, 2008 - 10:47 PM
        Wow! Massive does push out some great sounding baselines. That's a sweet soft synth, I say.
        You are right though, it chew cpu for breakfast. Probably best bouncing the sound to audio as soon as possible to free up extra processing.
        Great sound though. The interface, while very attractive, is not so intuative. It may take a bit of fiddling to get used to. Is there a way to import or generate your own wave forms?
        • Re: What are your favorite baseline synths?

          Sun, February 17, 2008 - 8:44 AM
          For sure, I bounce to audio fast and use the MIDI channel w/ Massive only for making a new sound. I've played around and pushed 60% with a pad sound and a 6 note chord...whoa, poor speakers, I'm sorry!!! I'm not sure I understood your first question above. Ask it again and maybe I can help. It took me weeks to start to get a handle on it myself (especially without the user's manual - I'm a bad studier - I prefer to tweak, learn, repeat). The best thing to remember is the envelope/lfo/pattern area is your friend. It can get you amazing modulation results with little work. And get into using the macros. You can assign one knob to multiple functions, so twist away at them knobs, mang. I was about to look and see if there is a Massive users Tribe. It's such a complex program that I'd love to hear other people's experiences with it and their tips.
          • Re: What are your favorite baseline synths?

            Sun, May 11, 2008 - 10:07 PM
            while i hate hate hate all the other refx products (threw a buch of money away on nexus...garbage!) i really like beast... it's simple and it's got that grimey sound

            i also like muon tau for sub bass... minimoog v is obviously great for this stuff too...

            david
      • Re: What are your favorite baseline synths?

        Mon, February 11, 2008 - 2:10 AM
        yeah, Adam, Ohmicide is really, really cool.

        I'm also finding that just running simple subsonic bass lines that are fairly typical and plain jane through
        different distortion VSTs creates very hip sounds.

        I especially love Steinberg's Quadrafuzz, which allows one to run up to four different types of
        distortion on four diffenent constainable frequency bands..........a super great plugin but maybe I'm getting
        off topic (the moderator suddenly moderates himself.....lol)
        • Re: What are your favorite baseline synths?

          Tue, February 12, 2008 - 9:21 AM
          No- not off topic at all. THe question at hand is how you like to synthesize and PROCESS your low frequencies. So, I am especially interested in hearing what people like to treat their baselines with.

          I also like quadrafuzz sometimes on my baselines. Is there an easy way to creat a wet/dry mix in cubase for plugs like that? Sometimes quadrafuzz flattens the sound a little too much.
          • Re: What are your favorite baseline synths?

            Tue, February 12, 2008 - 10:19 AM
            I layer my bassline by frequency.
            Basically I put everything that is pumped through subs (below approx 110hz) as clean mono sine waves created with most any synth (albino is good). This I compress heavily and maybe EQ to isolate the fundamental and cut any muddy freq.

            I then focus on the upper frequencies (which are layered) and use a more interesting patch. Depending on the sound I am going after, I might put distortion (izotope trash, logic's bit crusher, etc) and EQ to taste. I cut the sub part since this is used with the pure mono sine wave.

            The key to getting the bass just right in my opinion is to have a great monitoring system, well treated acoustics space, and constant checking of meters for proper EQ.
            • Excellent post, Brian, I agree completely.

              Regarding the lack of a wet/dry mix in the Quadrafuzz, here's how I get around it:

              I actually use subsonic bass samples (the web has plethoras of them for free and you can go to
              my Sample Resources tribe to get recommendations of dozens of sites for free samples)
              and I open up a channel in FLStudio and program my bass line into it.

              Then I assign the channel to the mixer and open up an instance of Quadrafuzz in it.
              I purposefully do not add distortion to the subsonic waves but, instead add one of the many distortion
              wave forms to the highes of the low midrange and most of the midranges and dial in something really
              beefy and over the top.

              Then I just use the wet/dry mix of the FLStudio mixer and turn the distorted VST effected channel completely off.

              I then slow bring it up (and especially within the context of the whole rest of the track to get the context for how much distortion works)
              until it sounds really good.

              I may then go back and equalize and emphasize some of the lower bass frequencies (60-120 cycles) in the clean
              unaffected channel to just give it some more body.

              All of this, I constantly cross reference against my Sony Pro Headphones because they really give me an accurate picture of
              how saturated the lowest frequencies are in a way that my excellent NHT Pro powered monitors don't.

              Personally, I don't like to use a sub in my system as I find it almost always artificially colors the sound and doesn't let you get a clear
              understanding of how your mix will sound on other sound systems (from the ridiculously over cranked subsonics of most inexpensive clubs to a really good home or car stereo).

              The ear does not hear nearly as accurately in the 30-120 cycle range as it does in the midranges and the lower you go , the less accurate your hearing gets (just due to how long the sine waves are in a subsonic sound----remember, a 30 cycle bass wave lasts for 16 feet for the first sine wave alone!)

              It's funny, but sometimes you can use very little of an effect; bringing it up until it is barely audible and it will 'inform' the entire
              sound.

              One has to be careful with all forms of distortion because it tends to go across the whole frequency spectrum and really tends to
              cause masking. This is a particularly hard problem with making vocals unintelligible.

              *******
              For what it's worth, I just went and did this process described above as an experiment and it took me under 2 minutes to compose a nice bass line and add all of it's distortion and eq. That's pretty quick.......................now onto the other frequencies in the piece of music I've just started writing.
              • SO what does the spectrum look like in your compositions generaly?
                Do you sculpt away any of the frequencies sub 40 or 60 hz? I like to have my kick drums (I compose trance music) be the primary dominator of the sub frequencies in my tracks usualy. I tend to sculpt away som of the deep end of my baselines though, Having their main peaks right around 90 hz and a cut around 200 depending on the sound and pitch. I also boots some of the highs of the kick to emphasize it's attach, bu I usuall sculpt a notch out around 100 hz for the baseline to fit into it nicely without masking or interferance. Of course, this is where a sidechain comp is handy.

                It's not a formula or anything, just my observations of what sound palatable to me. Just curious what you folks like to have your low frequencyies arranged like.

                Agreed on the monitoring issue completely. I am finally really happy with the monitoring in my studio. I have dynaudio bm5a monitors, a sub by svs (which i use with very little gain and a propper crosover), and I also treated my room to some acoustic foam. Having the monitors and subs on sperate outs from the mixer allows some nice fine tuning of the monitoring for different amplitudes. The low and high outs are not always in the same proportion to eachother at different listening volumes. That's what feals right to my ears at least.

                >Keep blasting the baselines my friends,
                Adam

                P.S.
                (Whoever recomended Massive in this forum, thanks much for the wakeup call on that one... It really is an ass kicking synth for many aplications).
                • I always HPF on the subs at 20-30 hz which cleans up the sound a bit.
                  I also LPF at 200-400 depending on the sound I am going for (muddiness in tracks are in the 250-800 range)
                  Sidechaining is essential for music where the kick and bass overlap at all, but I usually just have them playing at different times.
                  I also have a full pro-audio mackie system, so I bring my mix to the "big speakers" to test out the bass response.
                  Finally, I find it very useful to A/B your track with commercial releases that have the same kinda sound you are looking for.
                  Also once the bass is how you want it, HPF everything else in your track.
                  I usually have a bus that is this HPF that I route everything that isn't bass into. It is also helpful to EQ these frequencies out of any reverb bus.
                  Hope this helps.
                • Actually, I don't have a formula for my own mixes.
                  I just am a firm believer in the power of timbral masking (which is a psycho acoustic effect) to fuck up any mix.

                  Essentially, I try, within reason, to make sure all of my elements are in different timbral ranges so that they don't
                  mask each other until the hi midranges when they can be separated in the stereo field to exist simultaneously.

                  Since bass waves are percieved monophonically (waveforms to large for the short distance between the stereo
                  field that is our head and ears) masking is especially tough.

                  I may have already posted this, but a trick we used to use back in the analogue recroding studio days was to
                  put the kick through one side of a 31 band graphic eq and the bass guitar (or synth) through the other.

                  then , beginning with each frequency, you boost 3 db at 30 cycles on the left side and cut 3db at 30 cylces on the right side
                  then do the opposite: cut 3db at 60 cyles on the left: boost 3db at 60 cyles on the right, and so on and so forth.

                  This creates a zipper looking equaliation across the board.

                  Fascinatingly, if you solo either track they sound weird and wimpy..................put them together and the brain automatically
                  fills in the missing frequencies and yet, VOILA, you can clearly hear both sounds.

                  Of course, this means you need a really nice tight kick with attack on it if you use a huge sub bass sound or
                  a nice tight lo-midrangey bass sound with a lot of attack if you use a huge kick drum with a lot of subsonic.

                  You know, people forget that for the better part of recorded music's history that subsonics weren't even in the mix.
                  Records couldn't handle them , or at least not at any volume or the needle would literally jump out of the groove.

                  Now, every fucking live show you go to, they have the kicks cranked up unmercifully.

                  I just saw PINPACK live at the Catalyst and they destroyed the mix. The kick was enormous and the snare drum was so compressed and turned down that it had no balls at all. Additionally, the vocals were so heavily compressed that the whole mix sounded like it
                  had a double condom over the entire thing.

                  I've even noticed that this prevalence for cranking the hell out of the subsonics (which has become a complete trend in the past five years at big and small concerts alike) has started to change the kinds of drum kits that are being sold.
                  I just went to Guitar Center and half of their kits had enormous 26" double headed kick drums.

                  I 26' double headed kick drum does one thing really well: BOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!

                  Bonham, who made that sized drum famous was not tightly miced like everyone is in live concerts.
                  You tight mic a 26" and the kick drum has such a loud and deep boomy envelope that it masks everything in the mix.

                  I saw the Police and you could frequently not hear Sting's basslines because they were so muddy and the kick drum was so
                  overly loud and boomy.

                  I know this is getting to be a rant, but if you put some of the live mixes that I've heard this year
                  (Bjork, the Police, Springsteen, Brian Jonestown Massacre, Skinny Puppy, KMFDM, Robert Pollard, Gwar (?) and
                  several goth/industrial bands) on a recording and people would bring the CDs or Vinyl back thinking there was a mistake.

                  The subs at the Bjork show were so heavy that my wife and I left after 2/3 of the show, literally nauseated from the pounding we were taking
                  8 rows from the front. ............depressing when you are going to see a favorite artist and spending $200 to do so.

                  IMNSHO, this trend just makes things sound like crap.

                  <politely steps off of soapbox>

                  There, I feel better (though I had that horrible cold everyone's got in my hometown tonight).
                  Thanks for putting up with that.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Live sound

                    Thu, February 14, 2008 - 1:54 AM
                    hi Rick,
                    great rant :-)
                    It's the same here in the uk.
                    Loud boomy bass at every gig, but still looks like the bass player is miming.
                    As a local sound engineer told me "if you don't turn the bass up, people won't dance",
                    which may indeed be the case...but that was at a songwriter's showcase.

                    First gig I ever went to was Hawkwind, which was about 1975, and it was loud.
                    ..but back then, there was skill to it, everything started out a a more reasonable level,
                    then as the night went on they cranked it up step by step. I don't think it went into
                    distortion until the very last crescendo of strumming.

                    After that I saw a few more bands, and often the sound was incredibly good.
                    Everything clear and well mixed.

                    Meanwhile, at a 70's disco you could hear the sound of overamplified thump being developed.


                    I guess it's a equation of cost versus quality versus volume, it's relatively cheap to make
                    a bass speaker that's loud if you give up on the notion of even frequency response and
                    instead aim for something that can only blast out chest resonance frequencies in a narrow range.

                    When punk came along the local sound engineers (who mostly thought the bands couldn't play)
                    realised that as long as they made it loud they could get away with doing very little work.

                    In uk the successful bands don't have complex interesting basslines as part of the music,
                    presumably because it just wouldn't work at a gig.

                    It saddens me that I can hardly be bothered to go to gigs anymore, but the worst thing
                    is that audiences just don't seem to care.
                    • Re: Live sound

                      Thu, February 14, 2008 - 7:21 AM
                      Well agreed on some levels with this coversation. The issue at hand is the overall lack of dynamics in every frequency range. Some people like that, i suppose, but like the band that starts off their set at a moderate amplitude, and gradually pushes the limit, with any composition, without silence, the amplitude has no meaning.
                      Even with different forms of electronic dance music, a dynamic low end, is to me way more powerful, and certainly less fatiguing to the ears. But with trance music, a well mixed pumping baseline and kick are the structural force which can tie the abstraction together.

                      Mixes with full boxed, compressed sound have their days numbered in my opinion.

                      But in the end, if it sounds good...

                      it sounds good.
                      • Re: Live sound

                        Sat, February 16, 2008 - 2:33 AM
                        Um..
                        sorry for going with the Off topic.
                        I totally agree with you that you can't tell whether the music is good based on an analysis of the dynamics.

                        ..and my favourite bassline generator is my Fender Bass, so I can't even redeem myself by providing useful on topic info ;-)
                        • Re: Live sound

                          Sat, February 16, 2008 - 4:39 AM
                          <..and my favourite bassline generator is my Fender Bass, so I can't even redeem myself by providing useful on topic info ;-)>

                          is that a direct x, vst, au or rtas plugin? oh wait, you mean an ACTUAL bass, don't you?

                          ...people still play those? ;) precision, jazz or some other flavor?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.